An open letter

[Johnny ace]

I know that guillow has run some test laser cut 500 series kits.I would be willing to pay a premium for these , with better wood.I would get them all.what do the rest of you think?

[BillParker]

Howard: (Mr. Kittyfritters)

How long before we see the "LC" 500 part numbers?

bp

[kittyfritters]

Bill,

To tell you the truth, I don't know. But, I will ask them tomorrow. Remember, I'm not a Guillow's employee so I am not "in the loop".

Howard

[PsyberPhlier]

I for one would buy every plane in the 500 series right now, today, if they were laser cut kits...
FWIW

Ted

[BillParker]

I'm not a Guillow's employee so I am not "in the loop".

Yeah, I know... But you usually know more than we do... *G*


bp

[David Lewis]

Rather than simple direct conversion of existing designs from die cut to laser cut, I would like the designs to be re-engineered to increase durability, reduce weight, make them easier to build, improve flight performance and scale fidelity. Also, additional information and features, such as removable cowl, equipment locations, control horns and hinges, could be included to make R/C conversions easier.

I'm also a big fan of constant scale series instead of box scale. That means the Cessna 170 (#302) would be the same scale as the Champion (#301), instead of whatever size fits in the box. You can then build a fleet that looks right together. I would also like the scale and wingspan of the model to be accurately listed on the box and on the plans. For example the span of the #301 Champ is 23.7 inches.

[woundedbear]

I'm with johnny on this one, I was on micro mark's site last night they are already selling a laser cutter for the hobbyist...which brings up an ugly thought, what if Guillows has been farming out their laser cutting jobs to someone else ? Makes you kind of suspicious don't it....

[kittyfritters]

David and Woundedbear,

You might want to look at the Porter, Beaver, and Edge 540 kits since they were engineered for laser cutting and flight performance from the outset and have removable cowls and positive wing alignment features. The people at Guillow are well aware that moving the existing lines to laser cutting requires some re-engineering of the parts sheets to take advantage of the ability to get a straighter build. They really want to do it right. (I have not seen a laser cut original 300 series or 400 series kit so I do not know if they have carried their re-engineering through to the removable cowlings or positive wing alignment in those.) This process is not easy. Even though you have computer drafting and the precision of the laser cutter you end up building several prototypes before you get a model both flyable and producible. They are also milling their own wood so, from what I have experienced, the quality of the wood in the laser cut kits is better and more consistent.

The last time I discussed the subject they had four fast, powerful laser cutters on line. They have no need to farm out their laser cutting. Laser cutting, because the laser cutter is literally drawing every part instead of the whole sheet stamping process in die cutting, is slower. In die cutting you have to schedule the production runs around the setup time for changing the dies for the different models. With laser cutting the setup time for changing models if virtually nothing but you have to schedule the production runs around the speed of the machine. To keep production time at a reasonable level they have set a maximum cutting time per kit. This limitation is probably why some of the larger, more complex kits have not gone to laser cutting although I have been given to understand that the re-engineering has been done. The 500 series is so popular that they might have to purchase another laser cutter and dedicate it to that series production.

I have a hobby type laser cutter for my own designing but it is much slower than the ones at Guillow. Of course, their level of production is not an issue for me. I will admit, that even though preparing the drawings takes time, unless a model is extremely simple I am loath to cut anything out by hand any more.

Howard

[Johnny ace]

I would be happy with just better wood and laser cutting.I am not building for r/c.It does look like there is interest.I hope Guillow is considering updating these kits.

[Coloradoken]

Laser cutting would make for a more marketable product that would likely support a higher price. Personally, I would buy them.

[Bill Gaylord]

Rather than simple direct conversion of existing designs from die cut to laser cut, I would like the designs to be re-engineered to increase durability, reduce weight, improve flight performance and scale fidelity. Also, additional information and features, such as removable cowl, equipment locations, control horns and hinges, could be included to make R/C conversions easier.

That's similar to my feelings also, especially being well accustomed to hand cutting parts. The Guillows die-cut kits I've bought have been pretty decent for the most part. The LC kits seem to essentially be tracings, like some Dare LC kits. They don't necessarily need to be remodeled from a full-blown 3D CAD model, but tweaking/correcting part dimensions against simple CAD profile views would have been nice. Without doing that, there's really not much benefit over the current die-cut kits. For example, the slightly short wing former and slightly narrow fuse former on the 25-3/4" FW 190 would easily have been determined and corrected, with that bit of added effort. Also, there's ample remaining area on the parts sheets to simply add 4 aileron headers, a few tiny triangular aileron formers, and a bit of added inking to the wing formers to mark the cut lines, necessary for an aileron option. That small addition would be a good improvement to the LC kits, which would cost a fraction of a penny in ink, and a few additional seconds of laser cutting time.

As for paying more for an LC kit, I probably wouldn't care to. The notion of laser cutting should be to attract buyers when you have diminishing sales and LC competition, and not to increase prices. Attempting to charge more would likely prove to be a bad idea. At the end of the day, people want to know why they should pay more, which is not just for cleaner parts that fall out of the sheets. The company has to justify the increased costs on their end, and have some value added beyond just laser cutting offered in the new kits, if they plan to increase prices.

[WIDDOG]

I just bought a 900 series kit from Guillow's. I noticed that for 1/20 th inch thick wood the quality of the wood was very good. I don't know if I just lucked out or if Guillow's is trying to use better wood. I would pay more for Guillow's kits if they keep using this good quality wood.

[kittyfritters]

I just bought a 900 series kit from Guillow's. I noticed that for 1/20 th inch thick wood the quality of the wood was very good. I don't know if I just lucked out or if Guillow's is trying to use better wood. I would pay more for Guillow's kits if they keep using this good quality wood.

The 900 series kits have always had 1/20" sheet wood. The quality of the wood, for the most part, is getting better.

Howard

[BillParker]

What I've noticed is the individual kit's age... older rough wood, newer better...

[Bill Gaylord]

I just bought a 900 series kit from Guillow's. I noticed that for 1/20 th inch thick wood the quality of the wood was very good. I don't know if I just lucked out or if Guillow's is trying to use better wood. I would pay more for Guillow's kits if they keep using this good quality wood.

You got it. Much more value added for me with good wood, versus most other tweaks. A good example would be a kit that uses 1/4" square stock wing main spars and leading edges. The grade of wood should be amply strong, but not excessive, or the weight is a killer. Same goes for consistency, where it really defeats the purpose of an efficient build, when one spar is contest grade and the other is essentially oak.